16:09 Jehan: Is there an easy way to install the GIMP nightly Flatpak? 16:09 nils: that's unfortunately a niche feature so it looks like it won't make it to flatpak any time soon. 16:10 rishi: well I had a small server, but I had ISP issues and shut down the server. Now internet is fixed but server is still down. 16:10 rishi: and it is in a cave a few dozen kms away, so I can't switch it on right now. Sorry. 16:11 Jehan: That's sad. 16:12 rishi: yeah. That's what I wish to make a process of building/distributing a nightly on GIMP servers. 16:12 Jehan: I was just telling nils that a GIMP nightly flatpak would be less disruptive to the underlying distro than PPAs and COPRs. 16:12 Due to the need to bump GEGL and Babl, which can unknowingly break gnome-photos, which is now going to be shipped by default. 16:13 rishi: but that is just too much of a mess. I am a bit depressed on how difficult it is to even just know who has keys to servers, even just what servers we have, and then get this person to install stuffs for you. And so on. 16:13 Jehan: I see. :) 16:13 rishi: this is like worse than French administration to have anything installed on GIMP servers. 16:13 Can't you put it on the same infra' as the GNOME nightly Flatpaks. 16:13 ? 16:14 rishi, the same argument works the other way around ;) 16:14 nils: Which argument? 16:14 rishi: I asked too, and Alex Larrson (I think that was him, a few months ago, so…) told me that normally no, but they may make an exception for GIMP, considering the history. 16:14 But I haven't insisted and asked again since. 16:15 that apps should go into a flatpak or other container-like thing so that shared reqs can be in different versions 16:15 It feels like unless I give it my all dedicated time and make it a high priority job, pushing people and asking again, this won't happen. And I am a bit tired to be clear. 16:15 I mean it's just the same thing with any library that's used by more than one consumer. 16:15 nils: I am not sure what you mean? There are already plans in motion to do that in Fedora, but it won't happen overnight. 16:16 I really *WANT* this to happen, but this is not my highest priority and I don't want/can't to spend 2 weeks full time to have this happening. ;-( 16:17 rishi: so most of the options we have to host our nightly flatpak, it sounds like everybody agrees. Everybody says "yes that should be possible". But it just can't happen. 16:17 And that's a bit sad. 16:17 rishi, "that", do what? 16:17 nils: To ship all applications as Flatpaks. 16:18 Jehan: Maybe just ask Alex again and grab the exception. It does seem like an exception only in name. :P 16:18 rishi, yeah. And it needs some work, see Jehan's issue with GIMP/FP and MIDI device access 16:19 nils: That doesn't mean that in the meantime, we risk the base distribution for a COPR. Especially when the library in question is an unstable series - hence open to ABI breaks. 16:20 rishi: yeah but even "only in name" is still an exception and that sound like a lot of work. I am willing to do it, but sometimes I get very tired with all these easy things getting complicated. 16:20 Jehan: Lot of work?! It's just a matter of dropping a file in a git repository. 16:21 rishi, I don't wanna pick a quarrel on how good an idea it is to depend on an unstable library version ;) 16:21 with a supposedly stable app 16:21 rishi: yes technically. In real life, I already spent many hours asking and asking the same things over and over again. 16:21 We'll see how that goes with gegl and GIMP 2.10 final 16:21 Jehan: This is all you should need: https://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-apps-nightly/tree/org.gnome.Photos.app, no? 16:21 rishi: and the answer is always "yeah that may be possible to make exceptions for you because you are GIMP". 16:22 Anyway, we're working on the same field of problems with the modularity effort. 16:22 rishi: nobody ever proposed me to "drop a file in a repository". 16:22 rishi: I wish they would. 16:22 Jehan: I did show you all this long ago. :( 16:23 rishi: I have no idea what you are telling. 16:23 Jehan: I am saying that I described the setup for the GNOME nightlies in #gimp long ago. 16:23 rishi: whether you think it is an exception only in name or not, we are an exception. We cannot just "drop a file". 16:24 rishi: GNOME people would be mad at us, and I would understand them 16:24 . 16:24 One approach would be if 2.10 depends on a gegl version still considered unstable, to have the respective 2.10 module stream carry a private copy of gegl which isn't available to the system at large. 16:25 rishi: we are not a GNOME application. This is a fact. Let's be clear. I agreed when you said "exception only in name", but actually that's not true. If they allow us into their build system, we are an exception. No "only in name" here. 16:25 Jehan: You are already using the infra' - git, bugzilla. 16:25 rishi: it's not like I haven't asked several times. I did. 16:25 Essentially achieving the necessary isolation _but only for the gegl library_. 16:26 rishi: also I am pretty sure we discussed this already. 16:26 rishi: just stop trying to "convince" me! 16:26 rishi: I would be very happy to get GIMP into this build system! There is nothing to convince about! 16:26 Jehan: Dude, you are not making any sense. 16:27 rishi: what? 16:27 I don't understand where you are going with your discussion. 16:27 Dudes, you're probably talking at cross purposes. 16:27 rishi: I want, I ask, people say "maybe". I cannot force ourselves in. 16:27 Jehan: Every time I talk to you about this, you say "alexsaid he'll make an exception", "I didn't ask again", "people will be mad", "we are not GNOME"; then I say "but you are already using half the GNOME infra'". 16:27 rishi: we are *NOT* a GNOME application. 16:27 And then I don't get any response after that. 16:28 rishi: what answer? yeah we use the infra. That doesn't make us a GNOME app! 16:28 I mean it's pretty obvious that you two have different ideas of what it means to be a GNOME project. 16:28 rishi: what are you implying? That I am trying to elude your questions or something? 16:29 rishi: come on, why are you trying to pick a fight? 16:29 rishi: I don't understand what you are trying to do here. 16:29 Jehan, I don't think he's doing that, you know. 16:29 Picking a fight I mean. 16:29 nils: no it's not about an "idea". It's just that GNOME defines a list of their core projects. 16:29 nils: we are not a core project. We are a friend project. 16:30 nils: (as many others) 16:30 rishi, ^^ 16:30 Jehan: I am saying that needless bureacracy has led to there not being a nightly GIMP Flatpak, which means that everytime there's a GIMP unstable release, people update GEGL/Babl in old distro branches that breaks Photos. 16:30 Jehan, you're preaching to the choir :) 16:30 Jehan: So, yes, not having a GIMP nightly makes my life hard. 16:30 nils: they lend us their bugzilla, etc. But we are not in their official list of core GNOME projects. 16:31 Jehan: You have invented some criteria that I am not sure anybody other than you agree upon. 16:31 rishi: I *AGREE*! Come on! Stop convincing me! 16:31 I told you I AGREE! 16:31 Jehan, I'm not exactly sure that this has to do with flatpaks, though 16:31 I am not the one to convince! 16:31 Jehan: So, who has refused to let the nightly on GNOME infra'? 16:32 rishi: nobody, is what I said. But most importantly nobody has accepted! 16:32 We cannot force ourselves in on the fact that they don't refuse! 16:32 :D :D :D 16:32 It's like you are seeking out bureaucracy. 16:32 (otherwise everybody in the world can just walk in and use GNOME infra to make nightly builds!) 16:32 Jehan, I guess rishi suggests to just try to do it. 16:32 i have yet to see someone talk about "needless bureaucracy" who was closely involved with an actual situation 16:33 Jehan: First, the definition of "core GNOME" is very weak. 16:33 it always looks like that from outside 16:33 Jehan: Second, there are already things in https://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-apps-nightly/tree/ that are not "core". eg., frogr. 16:33 rishi: it is not weak. 16:33 Jehan: Third, Alex already said he'll let GIMP be hosted there. 16:33 rishi, are you a gnome developer? (ie you have push access to gimp) 16:34 rishi: in every list of core apps, we are not there. 16:34 Jehan: *phew* 16:34 Jehan, so? "core" is just a label. 16:34 rishi: for the record, I asked to be in the GNOME newcomers project too, for some months, we were there, now we have been removed. 16:35 Jehan: That statement is incomplete unless you mention the reason why you were removed. 16:35 rishi: even though I am always connected to the #newcomers channel, etc. and registered myself as the mentor. 16:35 Jehan: My takeaway right now from this is that you are fighting against an imaginary force based on imaginary criteria. 16:36 rishi: I asked, and don't remember the details, but basically we were not enough in the boxes. 16:36 rishi: they have rules. We have to follow. 16:36 You don't remember the details? Wow! 16:36 rishi: why the sarcasm? 16:36 rishi: seriously stop! 16:36 Stop trying to pick a fight. 16:36 Jehan: Because ithat soundsvery hand wavy. 16:36 I am out. 16:36 Anyway, forget about "core". 16:36 rishi: sorry but I am out. 16:37 Jehan: Did you see my second and third points? 16:37 Jehan: Ok, whatever. 16:37 rishi: I am happy to discuss, but without sarcasm and bad mood. 16:37 Jehan: Sure, feel free to imagine whatever. 16:37 rishi: I don't understand why you absolutely want to make a discussion in such crappy conditions. 16:37 rishi: I took a lot of time doing a flatpak manifest, testing it and whatever. Do you think I enjoy not having a nightly? 16:38 rishi: do you think I have a secret reason and actually don't want it? 16:38 Come on. You are just mean. 16:38 Jehan: You are imagining things. 16:39 "< rishi> You don't remember the details? Wow!" -> no sarcasm here, really? 16:39 Jehan, it looks like you see some thing or two in what rishi said which you don't agree with and then latch onto them instead of hearing him out on the rest. 16:39 Maybe I am just too sensitive, I don't know. 16:40 Jehan: If you really cared about why you are not in the list of newcomers apps, then you'd remember the reason. 16:40 nils: I heard what he said, but sorry no I am not going to just force ourselves in. That's all. 16:40 rishi: seriously? I care about a lot of things that I forget after! 16:40 Jehan: Who said about "forcing"? 16:40 You ask Alex. 16:40 rishi: I don't have infinite memory. 16:40 I don't even have that good a memory at all actually. 16:41 rishi: once again, you are implying things when you say "If you really cared" and that's really not cool. 16:41 Jehan: Forget about this "core" issue. Did you see my "second" and "third" points? 16:41 rishi: you are confrontational in your way to discuss. 16:41 Jehan: I am saying that because you keep saying "core". 16:42 Jehan, I'd suggest you disregard his perceived tone for a moment and look at rishi's second and third points 16:42 Jehan: If you really want to find reasons to get insulted, then I can say that I find it insulting when you say "GNOME people will get mad". 16:42 I don't care why you say what you say. You are mean. I don't want to discuss with bullies. 16:42 The end. 16:43 nils: sorry but I don't want to "disregard his perceived tone". 16:43 * nils sighs 16:43 nils: I have always hated discussing when people are mean. 16:43 Maybe I am a sissy, so be it. 16:43 Jehan: You are really begging for sarcasm here. 16:43 rishi: go ahead. 16:43 You keep responding to the "core" topic but ignore everything else. 16:44 I gotta go. Be excellent to each other I guess. 16:44 *** nils (nils@possum.tiptoe.de) has quit: Quit: Leaving 16:47 rishi, i think you are deliberately being confrontational and sarcastic, then you are saying how amazed you are when you don't get what you want 16:48 Jehan: So, I just spoke with csoriano about why GIMP is not in the list of newcomers applications. 16:48 Jehan: It has nothing to do with "core". 16:48 that approach doesn't look effective to me 16:48 rishi: does it seem effective to you? 16:48 It's because every thing that's listed there needs to follow the same workflow. 16:48 i notice you're ignoring my points 16:48 best of luck with it 16:54 mohawk: What do you want me to respond to? You are blaming me for being confrontational and what not for objecting to vaguely misleading statements? 16:54 Things like "GNOME people will go mad", and "we are not in the list of newcomers apps", are just strange things to say. 16:55 That GIMP is not in the list of newcomers page has nothing to do with being "core" or not. 16:58 rishi, i am blaming you for being sarcastic, of which this is one example: "< rishi> You don't remember the details? Wow!" 16:58 you need to deal with the fact that you are in the wrong here 16:58 mohawk: :D :D 16:58 rishi: I didn't say they would "go mad" but "be mad at us", which is certainly not the same connotation. In one meaning, it looks like they get angry or something not cool; in the other, it means they would not be very happy, but in a normal way. Same as we would not like very much for someone to suddenly add very weird commits in our repo just because we gave him write access. 16:59 rishi: and I never said that we were not in the newcomers because we were not core! 16:59 Jehan: You used that in the same conversation. 16:59 rishi: I actually even said explicitly that was not the reason! 16:59 rishi: let me scroll back up and copy paste from myself. 16:59 Jehan: So why mention it even in the first place? 17:00 rishi: "18:36 < Jehan> rishi: I asked, and don't remember the details, but basically we were not enough in the boxes." 17:00 Jehan: I think my number one problem with this conversation is that we keep digressing into random tangents. 17:00 rishi: I mentionned it. And here is my copy-paste! 17:00 rishi: what I mean is that there are rules and that's *normal* for us to follow them. 17:01 Jehan: So why did you mention something that has nothing with the "core" issue or having a GIMP flatpak? 17:01 Ok. 17:01 I can understand that. 17:01 rishi: so yes, it is "forcing" ourselves in if we do something like this without asking when there are explicit rules against. 17:01 Jehan: Wait, wait. 17:01 rishi: and last I checked there was an explicit rules about this flatpak nightly thing that it was only for core applications! 17:01 Jehan: Wait, wait. 17:01 what a tedious fellow 17:01 rishi: when I discussed with Alex Larsson, he never denied it either. 17:02 (I just want to finish what I am saying, please!) 17:02 * rishi waits 17:02 rishi: and no, I don't remember *where* I saw this, this is not bad faith from me, I am not implying things or anything. And the fact I don't remember doesn't mean anything else that I don't remember! 17:03 Sorry for not having infinite memory, but that only means what it means: I don't *REMEMBER*. I don't need sarcasm here. 17:03 Now maybe I misunderstood the rules. Maybe even the rules changed since then and it became possible! 17:04 Jehan: Let's take a deep breath, ok? :) 17:04 If so, that's awesome. But last I read, and as far as I understood (I am not perfect, I may misunderstand things), we were not allowed by the rules! That's all! 17:04 rishi: well you kind of pissed me off. 17:04 rishi: I really have nothing against you, but you have been really mean for no reason. Sorry to say so. 17:05 rishi: and I just don't understand why. 17:05 Maybe you had a bad day or something. 17:05 rishi: one of the reasons why I am trying to do Free Software in a freelance style is because I don't want to take this kind of crap anymore. 17:05 (from company managers or whatever) 17:06 Jehan: Have you considered your insistence on taking offence is actually insulting? 17:06 Ah last point! 17:07 As I said at the very start of the discussion, I have not infinite time either! This was the main reason! 17:07 Jehan: Nobody does. You are not special. 17:07 Anyway, I need to go to party. 17:07 rishi: as I said, I am pretty sure that if I take some time to make things happen and push the right people, that will happen! 17:07 rishi: I even said that it looked like everything agreed, but it doesn't look like it would happen unless I pushed a bit! 17:07 Jehan: You ask Alex, and put that 3-liner file in Git. 17:08 rishi: so that's it. BUT I don't have infinite time. Sorry for this. 17:08 Jehan: Nobody ahhas infinite time, ok? 17:08 rishi: basically you were being mean and sarcastic because you wished I took a bit more on my time to do this! What about yours? 17:09 rishi: yeah but when someone tells me he has not infinite time, I tell him "no prob, take your time". 17:09 rishi: on the other hand, you decided the best answer was to be sarcastic towards me and saying I implied things by "forgetting". 17:09 rishi: you see the difference in handling other people not having infinite time? 17:11 Jehan: :D :D 17:12 i withdraw my last remark about "tedious" 17:12 and replace it with "offensive" 17:12 do enjoy your party, rishi, where i am sure you will be super-popular 17:13 Jehan: Nobody has infinite time; there's no need to keep repeating that. 17:13 Talking to Alex and dropping the file in there is all I mentioned. 17:13 I can drop the file in there if you need help. 17:14 rishi: I keep repeating it because you talk as though I have. 17:14 rishi: also that is not the point. 17:14 rishi: I copy-paste my point a few lines above. "19:09 < Jehan> rishi: yeah but when someone tells me he has not infinite time, I tell him "no prob, take your time". 17:14 19:09 < Jehan> rishi: on the other hand, you decided the best answer was to be sarcastic towards me and saying I implied things by "forgetting"." 17:15 Jehan: I did find it strange how you kept insisting on "core". 17:15 rishi: that is just the rule for these nightlies. It's not from me! 17:16 Jehan: Again, "rules", "GNOME people". 17:16 The GNOME nightly infra' is already used by a few fringe applications. 17:16 I was told or I read (I don't remember, and no there is nothing more than that! *REMEMBER*) that it was for core GNOME apps. That's all! 17:16 That sentence is hard to parse. 17:17 Jehan: The definition of "core" is not set in stone. 17:17 Different people have different ideas of what "core" means. 17:17 rishi: yeah because I need to be accurate, otherwise you will make my words as though they imply other things! 17:17 And I say that as a GNOME developer. I might even add the adjective "core" there. 17:17 rishi: yeah but in none of these definition we are a GNOME application! 17:17 rishi: I know who you are! We even met! 17:18 rishi: you were less mean when we did. 17:18 Jehan: Why would I take your words to imply other things? I am just trying to make it easy for you to host your nightly. 17:18 rishi: well the famous *REMEMBER*. 17:18 Remember what? 17:19 rishi: when you basically implied that me not remembering had another meaning. 17:19 rishi: 18:40 < rishi> Jehan: If you really cared about why you are not in the list of newcomers apps, then you'd remember the reason. 17:19 Jehan: Yes, because I was tired of the random digressions. 17:19 The insistence on "rule" and "core" and needless bureaucracy. 17:20 Ask Alex, add the file, done. 17:20 rishi: I did ask Alex, he said maybe, he never asked me to add the file, so not done. 17:21 Jehan: You said "he said he will let you add it", but you never got back to it. 17:21 rishi: now I should ask him again, which takes time (but with all this discussion, I could have asked him 10 times by now!). 17:21 Jehan: That's what I am saying. 17:21 rishi: no I said he said that an exception might be done for us. 17:21 Jehan: half-full; half-empty :) 17:22 ?! 17:22 rishi: there is no such thing. Either I get an agreement or not. 17:22 You are reading it as "he might not add it", I read it as "he is fine with adding it". 17:22 I am not going to do things on a "yeah that's a half full agreement". 17:22 There is no such thing as a "half full agreement". 17:24 Jehan: HThis is where I say you are making this needlessly hard. 17:24 rishi: let me find and copy-paste! 17:24 But now you will blame me for being mean and sarcastic. 17:24 15:57 < Jehan_ZeMarmot> alexlarsson: meaning it would be acceptable? :-) 17:24 15:58 <@alexlarsson> Jehan_ZeMarmot: i dunno. We might consider it. 17:24 15:58 < Jehan_ZeMarmot> Ok. :-) 17:24 15:58 <@alexlarsson> its already taking quite a long time to build everything 17:24 15:58 < Jehan_ZeMarmot> I guess so. 17:24 15:58 <@alexlarsson> so we can't pile things on forever 17:24 15:58 <@alexlarsson> but the gimp is very tightly bound to gnome historically 17:24 * rishi leaves 17:24 Have fun. 17:24 rishi: which is exactly what I said. They would consider it and chances are high considering our history together. But sorry, that's not a "yes". 17:25 Jehan: Sure, have it your way. 17:25 Humans are not robots. 17:25 I am not making it "needlessly hard". With such an answer, if I push our builds without confirmation, I am sorry but I would understand someone would not be happy. 17:26 Are you serious? "i dunno. We might consider it." in which world, it means "yes, go ahead"?! 17:27 It's not about being robots. It's about respecting others' decisions. ... 21:00 Jehan: Which part of "ask Alex" do you not understand? 21:01 You asked him once, he said "maybe". 21:01 Did you ever approach him with a patch? 21:02 Jehan: If I start counting the number of times I had to argue with pippin to convince him of a use case for GEGL - I'd go crazy and nothing would ever get done. 21:02 That's just how humans interact. 21:02 You ask first, you discuss - there's a back and forth. 21:03 Asking once, and then sulking in a corner because somebody said "maybe yes" is not the way to get things done. 21:05 Jehan: And since you are dishing out insults as liberally as you are taking them, I must say that your interpretation of "GNOME people", etc. is quite ... interesting.